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Posted: 06/19/07Michael Bay Transforms Very Well
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Michael Bay has not exactly been the critics darling, but maybe that will change with the release of his latest summer blockbuster, Transformers. Budgeted shy of $200m, this adaptation of the popular toy and subsequent animated series is destined to be a bona fide hit if reaction at recent screenings is anything to go by. The story of two groups of robots battling it out as a young boy gets involved making the transition from geek to hero, is likely to strike a chord with audiences worldwide. Bay is still so busy putting finishing touches to his movie, that he greeted a packed press conference to answer many a probing question by an enthused media. Paul Fischer was there and filed this report. Q: Michael, firstly whats your reaction to Hot Fuzz which is so inspired by Bad Boyz II and also its been said you were offered Die Hard 4 and was wondering if this hadnt come together would you have considered doing that? Michael Bay: Um, Die Hard 4? No, I dont think so. Hot Fuzz, I havent seen it yet because I was finishing this movie. Its really hard at the end of your post schedule. Its just such a grind. Seeing a movie is like the last thing you want to do when you go home. I thought this would be like an easy post. On our budget we had a hiatus scheduled in here for, you know, cause I said My God, I have the longest post schedule so I didnt think the robots would be that hard but I was directing them all the way to the very end. Q: There seems to be so many disparate elements to this movie and I was wondering how you balance the needs of your vision as a filmmaker with those of Spielberg and those of fans because I notice there are definitely some Spielberg elements to this film? MB: Well I mean, you know, I make my own movie. I dont have someone tell me what to do. Ive always been inspired by Steven. I was not a transformer fan before I signed on to this movie. I think I was two years older when the toys came out so I just discovered girls instead but I quickly became, after I went to Hasbro, where you heard about that Transformer school, Im really thinking What the fuck am I going to Hasbro for Transformer school. They actually I thought I was going to learn how to fold up robots but I met with the CEO and I went through the whole Transformer law and I was, Ive been offered a lot of superhero movies before and nothings really appealed to me and I, you know, in the room, because Ive been such a fan of Japanese anime, it just hit me that if I make this really real, it could be something very new and different and so I quickly became probably one of the bigger Transformer fans in the world. And I tried to make this movie for non Transformer fans. OK? And I wanted it to be a little bit more if you could say adult. So Im sure Im going to get flack for You made an edgy movie on a toy. Hows that going to affect kids? I know there are Transformer fans that are like forty years old. Q: Michael one thing I kept hearing from this movie is, from the actors, is what a great actors director Michael Bay is. There seems to be a whole new thing that we havent really heard before. Did you do something different? MB: No, listen. I mean press is very weird because, what gets out there is Michael Bay yells. Its like listen, I visited Jim Cameron on Titanic. Im very similar to the way he directs. Hes an Assistant Director and Im an Assistant Director of my own set. I move my own sets. I shoot very fast. I never leave the set. And I love working with actors. I love giving actors freedom. I love like improving with actors. It freaks studios out because theyre like That wasnt in the script. That was in the script. Whats this? Hes wreckin the movie! and Im like Trust me. Its going to be funny. Because theres a whole issue of tone in this movie. But, you know, when Im doing action scenes Im going to be your worst nightmare basketball coach, you know. Thats to get the energy and the adrenalin going. Q: So youve always let them improvise. How much would you say was improvised here and what about the Armageddon joke that we get in the movie? MB: Well thats just me. Im like, OK, this kid is so funny. Im like Dude youve got to say this alright? Hes just funny. So, you guys all laughed right? Yeah Ill often add jokes along the way. Like a perfect example, because I will always hire actors that have a good improve skill. Like Nick Cage in The Rock. There was really nothing funny in The Rock in the script. And that was all through improv and just trying to work with the guys and try to make it funny. A good example in this scene was when the parents knocked on the door in the bedroom when he was hiding the robots. In the script it said Maybe hes MAS and like that was the joke. And thats pretty lame. So we actually brought em in the room and we just started this whole masturbation talk. And thats because the mom is such an amazing New York, actress shes in New York plays. Q: I believe that you said you had no nostalgia for the Transformers. Did that make it easier to make the film like a doctor operating on a stranger versus a friend? MB: Well listen, Im a huge Transformer fan now. I can officially say I probably should have thought more about robots on earth than anyone in the past year and a half. But yeah I actually think that because I wasnt a fan, I think makes it more accessible to other people, you know? Does that make sense? Q: I guess because youre coming in fresh the way people who arent familiar with it
MB: Right. You know, and like Megatron was a gun. And Im like Oh, its gotta be I dont get that and I did get a lot of flack from fans on the net. Like Michael Bay, you wrecked my childhood. Michael Bay, you suck. Were going to protest at his office. They protested my old office, apparently. Thats true. You know, but thats freaked me out. But, you know, I would listen to fans on the net. I really would. I would kind of hear their comments but Im still going to make my movie and Ill still put flames on Optimus. Q: That helped actually because
MB: It did right? You see? Q: I thought you gave him lips MB: Well because, you know, we did a lot of studies, facial studies. And it just emotional is so hard without that kind of movement, you know. We tried it solid. It just didnt look right. Q: Theres talk that theyre hoping maybe to get Transformers II if this one is a success, as everyones assuming its going to be, some time next year. But arent you going to be busy with Prince of Persia? MB: I dont know, I leave my negotiation open. Because the President of Paramounts right behind you, so he can probably kill me. I dont know what Im doing right now. Theres no script right now. Q: But you are directing Prince of Persia. MB: I dont know. No, I dont know. I honestly dont know. Q: Really? MB: I really dont know what Im doing. Im unemployed right now. I finished the movie like a week ago. Q: I wanted to ask, youve mentioned the tone of the film and I was wondering how you managed to balance between what seems to be a, I dont mean routine, but a somewhat normal recognisable action film with the Transformers? MB: I mean when Steven called me like a year and a half ago, he said I want you to direct Transformers. Its a story about a boy who buys his first car. To me that was a great hook. I hung up, I said Thank you. And I said Im not doing a stupid silly toy movie. But I thought about it, the hook was great because thats such a launching ground from a young adult into manhood or womanhood. It just, I liked the simplicity of it, OK? And it just made it somewhat more accessible. I mean if you notice I shot this movie very kind of generic. I mean Ive never in my life shot at a Burger King, OK? Or a guy riding on a pink bicycle or a house thats kind of like very suburbia. But it just makes it more acceptable and accessible to the ultra slick uberaction around it. That charm of the movie is, to me, in thinking about it was I kept having this image of this kid trying to hide robots from his parents in his house and that just stuck in my head as we were writing the script. So to me that was the whole charm of it. Q: Michael, I think its safe to say you didnt do as well with The Island. Im just wondering, did that affect how you approaching this one? MB: You know, I liked The Island and the thing is the reaction to The Island, it worked really well overseas. And I knew it would never be a smash because its not that type of movie. And I continually have so many people come up to me and say God that movies so good but no one new about it in America. I mean I asked five hundred people before it came out. They didnt even know when it was coming out. You saw our poster campaign, we had a muddled campaign. I knew we were in trouble with that movie domestically like four months out. And I kept saying You should go with the Warners campaign which did the forum so it was a whole kind of, Michael calls em studio marketing. Q: Did you change your attitude in directing, that you think maybe you had to change your style of directing? MB: No. You know the thing is you get right back on the horse again. There are so many directors that are like Oh it didnt open. Oh my god, Im over. And its like You know what? Screw it. Get back on the horse. Lets go. You know? So I finished The Island and three weeks later I was doing Transformers. Q: Can you tell us a little bit about the casting of Shia and also what you see as the underlying theme or message if there is one in this movie? MB: Well the underlying theme to me is really No sacrifice, no victory and that was something that I wanted to nail. I thought it was, my movies often deal with the hero archetype and the boy becoming a man, kind of like Nick Cage becoming a hero in The Rock or Shia, same thing. Its just kind of, when he got to carry that cube and sacrifice his life
your first question was casting Shia. Its very scary when youre trying to hinge a whole movie on a kid. And I had seen him in that I had only seen one of his movies, Constantine. And I thought Hes interesting but he looks so old. And Ian Bryce, one of my producers, says You should look at this kid, Shia. And Im like OK. And he was coming in and I saw some of his other movies and I really liked em. And then I talked to Steven. I said Have you seen Shia? and he goes Oh yes hes great. I love Shia. And he came in for the audition and he just, he nailed and I liked his improve skill. I liked how he was very able to take direction and mould and he was kinda I didnt want the geek, you know. What I like about Shia, when I think every guys been in that circumstance by the pond or the lake where the stud comes up to you and gives you shit and instead of doing, he comes right back with wit and humour and every guy likes him right then and there, I think. I mean, do you guys think so? You know, I dont think theres a kid today that could have done a better job. Hes a pain in the ass to work with, let me tell you. Let me tell you a funny story. I always like to put my actors in real circumstances. And we had him, there was a seventeen story downtown with a statue and my producer says How do you want to shoot that? He goes Were going to do a blueskin right? And I said Nah, fuck. Were going to put him up there. And we put him on wires, alright? And we rigged it, very safe, but there was only four inches of stand on and Shias like Yeah I think I can do it. Im going to go up there. So were ready to go and he goes, and mind you I would never go out there on my own. I would never do this. Bu he goes Oh man I cant get up there. I cant get up there. I said Dude youre going to embarrass yourself in front of the whole crew aright? You get paid way more than those kids on Fear Factor. Get the fuck up there. So he did it and it was really scary but its, you know, he was on cloud nine when he did it. Q: Do you ever foresee a time when you might want to do a little intimate low budget character study of some kind? MB: Ive got this one I keep trying to do it, called Pain Again. Its a really funny character story. I keep talking about it. Were going to be here next year and were going to talk about it again. And its like I just I just keeping saying Yes and do these big movies. Sometimes its a fear of like Are big movies going to go away? So, you know, Hollywood is kind of tough right now so I dont know. Q: Whats it about? MB: Its about, its very Pulp Fictiony true story. Its about these knuckleheads that kidnap and murder, searching for the American dreams in all the wrong ways. It very funny. All true. Q: Michael weve seen how James Cameron went from making huge physical action films into 3D computer general 3D films. Could you ever see yourself moving in that direction? MB: Honestly I think Id want to shoot myself working on a blue screen stage. I mean I did like maybe one, two days of blue screen on this movie. I just hate it. Its just, I like doing things real and its just really hard to go there, you know. Q: How conscious were you of trying to appeal to a female audience casting Josh Duhamel. Can you tell us a little bit about the female thing? MB: I actually met with Josh for one of my Platinum Dunes movies. And I really liked him. I got a sense of him in the room there. That was like four months prior. And this thing came up. And it was, you know, it was a very efficient budget. I honestly, I had no money for stars so I had to be very creative in picking people that I thought were going to break and after meeting him I really liked him so I wanted to work with him. Q: And so with Julie Whites character whos great MB: Awesome. I mean, you know, its just she didnt have that many lines in the movie and I just kept, you know, Kevin and her were just funny. They just kept doing stuff and I just love his blue collar sensibility and Ive always wanted to do that joke with the grass. Thats my lawyer. He does that to his kids. He doesnt let em go on the grass. Q: I wanted to know, as a filmmaker you seem to get more of your budget onscreen than almost anyone else. You get $150 million, it looks like $250 million. Whats your secret? MB: My secret is I shoot very, very fast. On average a director will shoot twenty set-ups a day. I do about seventy-five. And theyre real set-ups. Its not like, we work twelve hour days. I dont go overtime. But we work very hard. I work with my same crew. I gave 30% of my fee because they were going to ship me to Canada or Australia and I said No, I want to shoot with my guys. Its a team that Ive worked with for like close to sixteen years. And its just, you know, I like to keep the movies in Los Angeles if I could. And especially keep em in the States. We just save so much money because I have really good people. And I dont know, we just make it an efficient day. And I think music videos give me a sense of Im able to shoot fast and when the shit hits the fan, which it always does on a movie, youve got to figure out your plan A and B. And I do this system called leapfrog. I mean, like I said, the whole AD thing that gets out there, Michael Bay yells. Oh Michael Bay is being the Assistant Director. OK. Three shots, were doing this and I want you to prep that. Blah blah blah blah. So were leapfrogging. Were almost ready for the next shot. Its almost hard. Actors dont even go back to their trailers, as youve probably already heard. Tyrese put your clothes back on!. He would always take his clothes off. And you know, its a lot of stuff to put back on, you know. So I dont know, I guess thats the way. Q: Getting back to the thing about tone of the movie,I was just wondering, how did you guys arrive at the tone? MB: You know, I think it was just my gut, you know. I knew that its Transformers. You cant take it too seriously. But you wanted to get that sense of realism. Thats why the military involvement was very important, that we make it very real and credible. Like those guys on the AWAX those are all the real guys. I told em This is whats going down on the ground. What would you say?, and literally within two minutes they were bam, bam, bam, bam, bam and I just photographed what they said. So I think you mix the realism with Tyrese being in the worse situation and he says Man if you could see this shit. I mean that sounds real but it comes in a funny way. And you know, I made little jabs here and there like, you know, thats way too smart for Iranian scientists, you know. Or I mean how much do you get bugged by those outsourcing calls. You know, the calls out there? I mean it just bugs me. You know what? I forget to pay my AT&T bill. I get a call. Mr Bay? Theyre calling from Bombay and Im like I didnt pay it. You know, anyway. Q: As a director you somehow manage to get your emotion in an action film so what is more important for you? Is there a balance that youre seeking between the story and action? MB: Yeah I mean you want it to feel real and what I try to do is, especially with actors who are doing action stuff. The crew jokes, calling it Bayos, right? But you try to have a little bit of chaos. Its very organised. But you get them a little fritzed, you know. Because it just gives them more adrenalin, you know. Its a little bit of the unknown. And they will have a lot of loud bombs and stuff like that on the set if thats what it calls for. And I like to, you know, see the real emotion when theyre inside these action scenes. Q: Whats more important for you? Your story or action or do you find a balance? MB: No its both. Its a balance.. Q: Im curious in that you said that you are your own Assistant director. Is that because of the scale of the project or do you have a group of people who work at the pace that you would like them too? MB: I just love it. I dont know. Its just my thing. It just keeps me interested. It keeps me, you know, my thing is Ill get to set usually forty-five minutes after everyones there because I dont like people, you know, watching them eat burritos and their eggs. Im like I want to go to work. So theyre always on the radio and they go Bays comin in hot. Hes comin in hot. But it just keeps me really involved. Its just my thing. I dont know. Thats the creative part for me. Q: Tell us a little bit about what was going on in your head at the first press screening. Is it a nerve wracking experience watching it on the screen for you the first time? MB: Yes, its so nerve wracking. Its like, you want me to describe the testing process? Real quick. Like I do little focus groups on my own. Ill take like thirty kids into a little screening room. Ill do like nine year olds to fifteen year olds and then Id have like sixteen year olds, twenty-five year olds, I have someone that has nothing to do with movies. He comes in and says You can say whatever you want about this movie. Id show them in rough form. And they were great because theyll fill out little pages of whats confusing them, what lines they thought sucked. I mean theyre very blunt about it. And there was something where they hated Megan. She said one line and the women just turned off. And Im like We gotta deal with that. So then I get to the big test in Phoenix where we did like 450 people. It was all families. And Im like Ah, the kids are cute cause their applauding at different things you know, then Oh they all laughed at the masturbation thing and theyre all nine years old and Im like, I dont know. And Im like OK that went well and then I went out and I went to the adult screening next door, introduced that and doing the little sound button thing. This guy sitting next to me goes Whats that. I said Its just the sound. And he goes What do you do? I said Im the director. So the movie started, they were like laughing and applauding at certain things and Im thinking Oh this sucks. This movie sucks. Its kiddie movie, alright? And I said to the guy, I said Do you like this type of movie? and he goes Erh, you know and Im like Alright? Its a kid movie. Its a kid movie. So all these emotions go through your head. And we did a focus group. I ran out and we did a focus group with the kids and the parents and like the focus group. Twenty-six out of twenty-six gave it an excellent. Im like Oh thats interesting. Our scores were gigantic and Im like OK thats cause its a kid movie. Then I went to the adult focus group and then we got the same score. We got like a 95 and Im like Thats weird. A lot of the older ladies, like 35, 40. Theyre like I didnt want to come here. I didnt want to see this. I was dragged here. And its true. And this one lady, she goes This kind of reinvents superheros because she said a great line. She goes, Its like were tired of the suits and the capes and whatever. I mean this is totally new and different. So anyway, its still nerve wracking. Do you know what Im saying? That was a long, boring answer. Q: John Turturro mentioned that he based a lot of his character on you. I was wondering if thats something you guys discussed and what you felt about it. MB: No I was scared to work with John Turturro. I was like Oh John. He came out like a little corgi, and when he had that hat, that was the first day I worked with him at the dam and Im like OK, I dont know about that. I dont know. I dont know, I grew to really like working with John. I dont know if he based it on me. Its just I do think criminal are odd by the way. No, kidding. I dont know if he based it on me. He said that but you should see his Scorsese imitation. Its one of the best Ive ever seen. Q: Some of this movie plays almost like a recruiting video for the military. You have a pretty good relationship with this and you talk about the military elements in the film it seems like you grounded the film more in reality or
MB: Well heres the thing. If youre going to have youve gotta have the external alien invasion and to make it credible youre going to have military. And I just dont like when you see like in Independence Day and they dont get military support. And youve got like few jeeps and youve got this and everythings kind of mismatched and its all digital planes and its like, its just not credible, you know. And so you needed that reality so you can ground this little kids' story. And Ive had a good relationship with them on Armageddon and Pearl and I somehow convinced them this is the largest cooperation since Black Hawk and Pearl for them. I think they like me because I really respect the military and I respect the soldier, you know, the people, the men and women that really will sacrifice themselves and those guy around Josh and Tyrese, theyre all the real guys. Theyre all special op SEALs. Its fascinating. Im just enamoured with people that will really go to combat. Its just a wild thing. Q: You got a lot of equipment and ships and planes and all that stuff. MB: But you know, if you look at the theme, No sacrifice, no victory, I think thats the way they see it. And they just want to be treated credibly, you know, they want it to be show in a real light, you know. If youre fighting scorpanauts, how would they do an air strike. And so we literally show you exactly how it happens, you know. Q: Do you know if they are retired? MB: No those are guys that have either taken leave, I mean some of them were actually going to get called back to Iraq and then they all, this is the thing that happens with all of them, they get the Hollywood bug. We called one of them Hollywood. He trains US SEALs down in Escondido And I said Dude, just go back to being a SEAL. Q: Can I ask you about GMs involvement? MB: OK. I mean, I had $145 million. I needed to find a car company that can give me a bunch of vehicles and save 3 million bucks. And I opened it up to every car company. I have a relationship with GM because Ive done commercials for them. Theyve helped me on my other movies by giving me flood damage cars, these are cars that have to be destroyed, and they took me to Skunkworks, which is where they do the prototype cars. Theres a secret place somewhere. And I saw that car and Im like Thats Bumble Bee. And so it helped save 3 million bucks and it was a great looking car. Q: We heard there was a GM guy on set who wouldnt let them smudge the leather but when he wasnt around youd race the car through gravel at 140 mph. MB: No thats completely bull. No, no we did have the one prototype. The prototype are really hard because the cost like $5 million to make. We made our own. We had the cad file for that car out there, which is a Celine chassis and we made it like in six weeks in Detroit really fast. Q: How have you changed as a filmmaker throughout the past decade? MB: Im older, crankier. No Im not cranky. No I dont. I actually dont. I crack a lot of jokes though. I tease people. Q: Have you? MB: Yeah I get a little bit. But what were you going
? Q: How youve changed the most. Is this movie very different do you think to its predecessors for you? MB: Someone said to me in Australia. They said After The Island did you want to go back to your more safe routes? and I just thought this idea, if it was done in a cool way, could be a big idea. And a fun movie idea. A fun summer movie. And I liked the challenge of taking something that hasnt been done and trying to working with my team of artists for eight months, nine months and my digital effects companies to try and create characters that are made out of thin air. And it was something really challenging for me to do its like doing an animated move. Working with animator is such a great process. And the end result, its like you look t these things and theyre like You look at Bumble Bee and it looks like theres a soul inside this thing. So that was a fun challenge for me. Q: Thinking of that, the scene in the back yard is so wonderful and so much of that is comic timing with these four characters who arent going to be there until much later. How did you create that kind atmosphere? MB: Well what I do is I do a series of animatics which are crude cartoons and, a movie really comes to life I mean Im working with the writers and Im creating a new script but it all starts down with the concept drawings. And its like that becomes the tone of the movie. I showed Steven a picture of Megatron in the hangar and he goes Oh my god I love that. Thats the movie and Im like I know. And thats how you get the tone, you know. I think the dog peeing was something we made up. Thats where we tied a little string to his leg and lifted up to nothing there and they added in the squirt and you know, its just really good to work with someone like a Shia or a Megan where they can actually see a cartoon and theyre looking at window washer poles which is tough. And you just keep doing it. Q: Michael which directors do you like? MB: Oh god, I mean, everyone always asks me this question. Its just, you know, from Kubrick to Ive always been a huge fan of the Cohen brothers. I mean, Raising Arizona was such an instrumental film in like how Ive done some of my commercials and just that comic timing. A lot of people didnt get that movie when it came out. But I just, you know, from Steven to Cameron to Scorsese. When I was young, you probably heard, I worked at Lucas Film. When I was fifteen I was like a librarian and I filed Raiders of the Lost Ark story boards. It was how I got interested in the business. Q: Who or what inspired you to, I dont know, believe in yourself enough to actually follow this idea that you could do something? Who was it and what did they tell you? MB: Who was it? I dont know. You know when I was young I wanted to be a veterinarian. And I remember raising money because told they took me to a place where they gas the dogs and cats and Im like Oh my god. I cant believe this exists in the world. I have many different interests. I wanted to be a magician. So I was inspired by that. I realised theres no money in being a magician so I gave it up and I liquidated all my tricks to another competing group that was twelve. Q: But you continued to dream. Who said Hey Michael, keep doing it. MB: You know, I think it was my parents really. They kind of encouraged me to do art and I bought a camera when I was thirteen and I just loved taking pictures and so it was really my parents. I mean my dad was an accountant. I remember, this is funny, when I was young I was a big baseball player but I had this model train set and I would go into my world. I made a very detailed HO gauge train set and I remember one summer I spent eight months building this thing. Fully detailed and Id go into my imaginary world. And my dad and mom came into the bedroom one day and they go, Son, we think you need to get out more. So thats where I started imagining. I think the train sets is where I kind of made my own little movies in my head. Q: After this film is a monster hit, are you going to be willing to jump back in and do a sequel and have your already thought about what characters youd like to introduce in the next film? MB: Ive got some really cool stuff that I came up with the first one that was just too expense. Stuff, yeah, really cool. Steven was Right no, we should pull back and not have as many robots, so we can really focus more. I mean I wish I got into some of the faces more of some of the robots. But it was really Steven who said I think we should just make it like five against five or five against six or something like that. So it was good that we scaled back a bit. Q: Would you be willing to jump right back in and do a sequel. MB: You know, maybe a little break, but weve got to come up with a good story first. Q: Your special effects gentleman, Scott, said that this is the first giant robot movie in live action that he could think of. Were you conscious of that? Were you conscious of creating a new subgenre and did that give you any kind of freedom? MB: Well it just, let me tell you these robots didnt come out good at first. I mean it was hard. It was not all peaches and cream at ILM. I mean there was a lot of angry phone calls, like We have to do better. We have to do better. Because they thought they were settling on something and Im like No. This is unacceptable. And I just kept pushing them and pushing them and pushing them and, you know, we came up with a really good visual thing. I wanted them not to be clunky lumbering robots. I mean I looked at a lot of Kung-Fu movies. I wanted them to have a different type of movement. And I would just clip different things from different movies and Id reference those to the animators, how they should move. Q: Were you conscious of creating a new subgenre? MB: Yeah because if they sucked, if they were horrible, the movie was doomed, or is doomed. So you got a lot of pressure there trying to make it work, you know. And you got pressure from, you know, the fans saying you wrecked their childhood and all this about complaining, We dont like the look of em and you just had to hold to your guns. You just had to, you know, the fans wanted me just literally to take these cartoons and blow em up and its like literally the equivalent of Ghostbusters with the Marshmallow Man. It just wouldnt work. They need to be much more complex the way they are. Q: You made a reference earlier that you think that Hollywoods big movies are going away
MB: I dont know. Its like you do a movie then youre unemployed. You know what Im saying? So its just like, I dont know, its just yeah, I think Hollywoods got some stumbling blocks here and there. You know, there is a business going and there are very few, not a lot of big movies that are made. Its just not. Q: This is a big summer for movies. MB: I know. Thats good. A lot of people are going to the movies. Q: And you dont think thats going to continue? MB: Yes it will. Its just good to like think itll never end.
Paul Fischer is originally from Australia. Now he is an interviewer and |